Valve box flow meter install feedback - Accessories & Sensors / Wireless Flow - Rachio Community
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post by corfam on Jun 17, 2018
@brad , @johnny2678,
Thanks for the work and info.
Does the app or web interface offer this SNR info or were you looking at signal data reported to cloud that only Rachio can see? I’m wondering for other users that may want/need to run experiments on their setup.
Also, did you happen to determine that @johnny2678 low flow notification messages were from low signal strength?
From the photos published on the FCC website for flow sensor cert, it appears that the antenna is close to being under the printed Rachio logo on the sensor faceplate. https://fccid.io/2AOTBRFLOW/Internal-Photos/InternalPhotos-3847588. I believe the photo shows the top down view rotated 180 degrees as you would normally look at controller with connection LED towards top. (i.e. in this photo the led is shown towards bottom. I also believe the flow direction arrow in this photo points from right to left). That’s my interpretation anyway. Is that right?
The corresponding 900 Mhz antenna on controller is upper left as viewed on Rachio 3 FCC cert photo… https://fccid.io/2AOTB-ZULWC/Internal-Photos/InternalPhoto-w-antennas-3815931
Which side of your valve box is closest to Rachio 3 controller? I’m just wondering if earth needs to be cleared out further close to sensor and/or on the valve box side closest to the antenna (outside box)…not that I know what could be filled in in place of dirt that would cause less RF impact than dirt or rock.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 17, 2018
@brad told me. If you’re looking at the flow meter and the flow arrow is pointing to the right, the radio antenna is on the top left side.
For now, there isn’t any SNR or RSSI signal strength data in the app, but Rachio can see SNR on their end. The app does report if the signal is Excellent or Poor (there may be more signal strength states but those are the only 2 i’ve seen).
Since you asked, my controller is physically located to the right side of the pic below. I suppose I could clear out some dirt to the right of the valve box just to see if that opens things up.
Here’s a google maps pic for better reference, flow meter is by the street, controller is on the backside of my garage.
Thanks all, especially @brad for digging into this with me. And Happy Fathers Day to the Dads out there.
post by fpuig on Jun 17, 2018
At 112 ft. in 900 MHz with milliwatts + obstructions ( underground installation, garage, etc… ) you will never achieve good signal level / reliability. You probably can install the controller in the other side of the garage and consider installing it in a plastic box outdoor. Other factors in 900 MHz include multiple equipment like telemetry, etc… that impact the SNR.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 17, 2018
I should clarify that the controller is already outdoors in an outdoor enclosure.
post by corfam on Jun 18, 2018
@johnny2678 Great. Thanks for photos. I’m no expert on RF, but the pictures should help the community provide additional ideas. It sounds like @fpuig knows RF. The distance of your controller to sensor is certainly well within the Rachio advertised distance, so hopefully @brad has other ideas. My current thoughts are below. Some suggestions may sound dumb. 🙂
- At least for a trial, it seems you could move the sensor above ground by adding vertical sections of PVC…assuming you have water pressure to spare. If it worked, a support frame could be added and plants could help hide the setup.
- Maybe Rachio controller and/or flow sensor antenna power is being currently managed lower than FCC certified limits and can be tweaked by software change. Higher power would mean lower sensor battery life, but that could be trade-off for in ground sensor setups. Again, hopefully RF power isn’t already maxed out. Only Rachio team would know possibility there.
- I wonder if any powered active 900 Mhz LoRa repeaters exist…and cheap ones at that.
- I wonder, similar to what @DLane suggested if some type of passive RF director like the suggested “Pringles can” to surround sensor and direct RF towards controller would help…or maybe even a wire cut to specific length and placed near sensor to outside of enclosure to act as passive radiator.
Lastly…when you stated… I’m wondering if you did have “excellent” RF signal strength initially, was the sensor already in the ground at that point? ?? If so, it would be good to still figure out what changed. i.e Maybe the ground around valve box was initially dry during initial testing and significantly more moisture was there in later tests. …or maybe a car wasn’t parked in garage when the signal was excellent and has been in all other tests. Whatever caused the difference may lead to other possible solutions.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 18, 2018
@corfam Thanks for the feedback. Always helps to talk/type it out when troubleshooting. There are no dumb suggestions 😉
I should have enough system pressure to support this, but I would probably save this as a last resort. I could also drill through my block wall, extend my zone wires, and run them inside the garage so I could get the controller closer.
It’s my hope as well that Rachio can find a software solution that would extend the range for users that understand the tradeoff in battery life. I’m okay with changing the battery every year.
I wondered this as well.
I finished my can of Pringles yesterday 😉. I have some work to do today but look forward to running some more tests. In the meantime, I did try and coil up some wire and place it over the antenna on the flow meter to see if signal strength was boosted.
Could be poor technique on my end but this doesn’t seem to have much of an effect.
When I measured excellent signal strength, I had just paired the flow meter to the device but it wasn’t installed yet. It was at ground level at the exact install spot - so it seems that the signal degradation is less from the garage/block wall and more from being buried ~10 inches or so and placed in the valve box.
Thanks again for the comments/suggestions.
post by corfam on Jun 18, 2018
@johnny2678 I hope you don’t have to go through the trouble but it’s good controller antenna would then also face sensor in this configuration.
Again, I’m no RF guy, but wire length would matter to act as antenna tuned to somewhere close to 900 MHz. FCC cert for Rachio’s flow sensor says transmit & receive is in the range of 903.8-922.2 MHz. Did you happen to cut your wire to a specific length? Just over 1 foot length would be good.
( Selecting Antennas for Embedded Designs | DigiKey).
For this frequency range my calculations say wire length in the range of 12.8 inches to 13.1 inches would be appropriate. I would make it one continuous piece without the splice and probably also test leaving wire straight (no coil) where it rests on sensor.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 18, 2018
Good call on the antenna length. I’ll have some more time this afternoon to test some more configurations. Thanks again.
post by corfam on Jun 18, 2018
great. When I said to test leaving wire straight I meant to say to align wire so that it’s parallel to PCB antenna as shown in FCC photo. That would put the wire sitting across short side of sensor like this:
post by DLane on Jun 18, 2018
I too would hate to see you drill through the cinder block until it is the last thing. I might de-install the Rachio and then plug it in with an extension cord and with @brad on the line walk towards the flow meter to determine distance.
Two other things to consider:
- An empty valve box next to and in a straight line toward the Rachio. Air is less resistive to radio signals than dirt.
- Get 4 90-degree elbows along with the PVC-Lock release tool (assuming you don’t have it) and put the flow meter just under the valve cover top. In other words raise it up 8 or 9 inches. Just like the other pipe in the picture. Swap out their layout.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 18, 2018
Some progress to report:
I found a 3rd signal strength state reported in the app - Good!:
How did I achieve this??
I placed the wire coil inside a Pringles can and tilted it towards the controller as best I could. 😂 Props to you @DLane!
I ran a calibration at 1:29 PM ET and it completed without any dropouts. Could you check and see that the SNR you see on your end matches what I’m seeing?
post by corfam on Jun 18, 2018
Great progress @johnny2678! Looks like the Pringles guy is smiling too.
post by franz on Jun 18, 2018
@johnny2678 This might be my favorite post ever, science!
I’m wondering if we need to include a Pringles can in our next build out.
post by DLane on Jun 18, 2018
@johnny2678 - I take it you doubted my recommendation??
post by johnny2678 on Jun 18, 2018
Just make sure that when you announce a Pringles / Rachio strategic partnership, @DLane and I get invited to the happy hour. 🍻🌴
post by brad on Jun 19, 2018
Wow, I’m super impressed by this thread!! You guys rock
A few notes in no particular order:
There should be no situation where you get low flow measurements from poor signal strength. All our transmissions are error checked, so we will either get a correct measurement or nothing at all. There was something else going on with @johnny2678’s readings but we were working on signal strength first.
@johnny2678 your SNR is now at -6, so definitely better. One thing I was reminded yesterday is the SNR is averaged over the last hour or so of messages. That makes it a lot harder to run real-time testing we work trying, so I’m looking for a way to do some better testing next time. I’d really like to determine whether the Pringles can made the difference or if your controller happened to switch frequencies and maybe that made an impact.
As I discussed with @johnny2678 over the weekend, the range to a buried install is very challenging to assess. With no obstructions we’ve seen 300 ft into a valve box. However, depending on hills and obstructions, range may be more like 75 ft in a worst-case. Also, we are maxed out on power… you all are correct it is a pretty low power level to save battery life. Our radio chip had two RF outputs, and we went with the one without an extra amplification stage. It was a tough call, but it saves a bunch of battery life for not losing that much output power. Unfortunately, there’s no repeater for our system, just another trade-off we had to make. We kept the system very simple and pushed range as far as we possibly could in a star network. FYI, the controller has quite a bit higher power than the flow meter since it’s wall powered.
SNR and RSSI are not exposed in the app at this time.
@corfam Yes, you’re right on with where the antenna is located. If you’re curious, this is the chip antenna we use: https://www.johansontechnology.com/datasheets/antennas/0900AT43A0070.pdf
I think I covered most everything, but let me know if there are other questions I do my best to answer 😉 Looking forward to some more sleuthing.
post by franz on Jun 19, 2018
@johnny2678 Just noticed one little problem in your install. These are the “lightly salted” Pringles. I think BBQ or Ranch would have been a better choice.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 19, 2018
Thanks @brad for the feedback.
Would love to get that SNR a little higher. Any updates on channel selection?
Happy to do some more testing anytime! Just let me know.
post by DLane on Jun 19, 2018
Et tu Brute?
post by mkj on Jun 26, 2018
@DLane mentioned a potential problem with stucco (Faraday cage). I was planning to install the controller about 30 feet from the underground flow meter. It will be inside my garage which is behind stucco. Is this going to be a problem for me?
post by kseawright on Jun 30, 2018
Is the stucco in the direct path between the controller and the meter? What is your garage door made of? Wireless signals can take multiple paths between components and it would depend on the path(s) available and the RF attenuation that is caused by each path. I would do the pairing test in the underground instructions with your garage door closed before digging anything and see what signal level you have at that point. If it shows up excellent when the meter is in the shipping box and paired with the controller while sitting on the ground at the location you will dig, I would say you have a good chance of it working. The maximum distance in the underground installation instructions is 75 ft (down from 300 ft in the above-ground instructions) and you are less than half that distance. Thus if there is an alternate path that is wood or a window that is less than 75 ft going that path, then you have a good chance of it working. (for those of you RF gurus out there, yes I’m simplifying things for this case and not talking about multipath and such real-world RF concerns, among others.) The only real confirmation is to put it in the ground under the box. Hope this helps.
post by mkj on Jul 10, 2018
I received the flow meter yesterday. I haven’t installed it yet because the system is a 1” poly and installation instructions for this seem to be up in the air. Nevertheless, I paired it with my controller and put the meter in the valve box and my signal strength is excellent. So I think I’m good.
I could probably install in my poly system the same as the PVC or transition from poly to PVC before and after the flow meter, but I would like to follow what Rachio says. The fact that they have not supplied an official installation for this makes me wonder if they are having problems with an underground Poly installation.
post by laura.bauman on Jul 10, 2018
Hey @mkj!
Don’t fret, underground poly instructions coming so stay tuned 🙂 Whatever you do, wait for the poly instructions!! DM me your email so I can make sure we get those out to you as soon as they’re ready to go!
-Lo
post by Bytored on Jul 15, 2018
I am in the process of install except I’m 1" PVC and just did like you did I placed the flow meter in back flow valve box with cover on to get a signal reading. Say 7 excellent. I'm leaving it in there for a while to see if the signal fluctuates before the actual install.
post by DLane on Jul 15, 2018
@Bytored - my flow meter is about 10 - 12" underground and I’m at a +5. Been installed for a week, so far no issues.
post by johnny2678 on May 10, 2019
Wow, this is great feedback @7Natives! I’ll think about pulling the stones out and putting a ground plane in.
Quick update on the flow meter install w/ cantenna… it’s still running strong with no dropouts almost one year later.
Even more amazing is the valve box I installed is at a low point in the yard, so every time it rains the box fills up, completely engulfing the flow meter. I lost connectivity until the water drains away, but then it comes back up just fine. FULL DISCLAIMER: I’m sure the Rachio folks don’t warrant the flow meter under these conditions, but still solid engineering by the Rachio team 😉
post by franz on May 10, 2019
Yeah, definitely not the intent there. I’m surprised it hasn’t got water damage yet. 😉 You might be on borrowed time 🙂