Valve box flow meter install feedback - Accessories & Sensors / Wireless Flow - Rachio Community
Valve box flow meter install feedback
Accessories & Sensors
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post by johnny2678 on Jun 16, 2018
Reporting back in for those of you considering a valve box for an underground flow meter install… today I noticed that flow meter signal strength had reduced from excellent to poor. This resulted in incorrect flow readings and low-flow warnings this morning during my tests compared to the baseline I took yesterday.
After further tests, I wasn’t able to get the signal strength back up to excellent, but did notice that flow seemed accurate compared to the baseline when I took the lid of the valve box off. Since I recorded the baseline yesterday with the valve box lid off, this makes sense.
When I replaced the lid, the low-flow warnings started again.
Rachio team (@franz, @emil, @mckynzee, etc), is there any way to get more granular on the signal strength than just “excellent” and “low”? Would be nice to see the decibels to confirm that the lid is causing interference. I’m guessing you guys can read this from your end at least.
Any ideas on improving signal strength? Can anything be done with the LoRa on the controller side? I won’t be able to get the flow meter any closer than this without digging up my yard - not an option.
FYI, The flow meter is buried about 10 inches and is about 120-130 ft from the controller.
TL;DR - if you’re considering an underground install, you might want to wait for the Rachio team to weigh in.
post by DLane on Jun 16, 2018
@johnny2678 - I’m not a RF or Electrical engineer so take this all with a grain of salt. Radio waves typically go in a straight line (yes, there are reflections, etc.). Get a Pringles ™ can (empty after eating or disposing of the chips), remove the bottom and place it over the flow meter (may have to make some vertical cuts up the side of the can to get the can to go over the flow meter) and orient the top of the can towards the Rachio controller as best as you can. This may help by acting as a directional antennae (don’t laugh hackers use this trick when war-driving trying to find open WiFi networks). Another option may be to wrap a wire around the flow meter and bring it to the top of the valve box (taped down at both ends on the outside top of the valve box) to see if the signal will propagate better above ground. Another option would be to get something that is less dense to the radio waves than the existing top - maybe plywood (and paint it green of course).
post by johnny2678 on Jun 16, 2018
All great ideas @DLane! Got a kick out of trying to explain to my wife that I was only scarfing down a whole can of Pringles to increase the signal strength in my new lawn gadget
In all seriousness - an engineering diagram on the flow meter might be nice to see which side the radio is on if I try the wire trick. Rachio team, any input?
post by brad on Jun 16, 2018
Hi @johnny2678, you are definitely at the far reaches of distance the system is capable of to an underground install. We are targeting 100ft, however, I think yours should work. We’ve seen 300ft to an underground install pretty easily and are giving ourselves some margin.
I suspect there may be something else going on with your low flow measurements, but I won’t be sure until I look at the logs. It shouldn’t give you a low flow or incorrect reading when you’re out of range. All the communication is error checked so you’ll either get a good value or nothing. Can you DM me your serial number (either controller or flow meter) and I may want to try some real time testing over the phone if you’re up for it.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 16, 2018
@brad, thanks for the response. Happy to do testing over the phone any time. Just let me know when.
Sent my controller serial in a DM.
My controller is mounted outdoors about 4.5 feet above ground on a cinder block wall, which could also be adding some interference.
post by DLane on Jun 16, 2018
@johnny2678 if the cinder block wall is between the Rachio and the flow meter, I’d change the could to would. Along with any other structure (walls, fence (brick is deadly to radio waves), stucco has metal lathe behind it - ever heard of a Faraday cage?
post by johnny2678 on Jun 16, 2018
:googles faraday cage:
of course I’ve heard of it, who hasn’t?
post by brad on Jun 17, 2018
Quick update on @johnny2678’s flow meter:
First off, huge thank you to @johnny2678 for being a tester and taking an hour with me to try a bunch of different things. TLDR, 120ft to a buried flow meter with obstructions is on the hairy edge of the flow meter’s range.
We can see SNR (signal to noise ratio) of the radio which can be anywhere from -10 (worst) to +10 (best). John’s flow meter is sitting at -9 or -10 and intermittently dropping out. We did some testing and found 1. valve box cover had no impact 2. rotating 90 degrees had no impact and 3. upside down (batteries up) made the flow meter drop out.
I’ll see if there’s anything we can do to improve performance based on channel selection in this case and we’ll hopefully be back testing soon.
Again, big shout out to @johnny2678. Have a happy rest of your father’s day!
post by corfam on Jun 17, 2018
@brad , @johnny2678,
Thanks for the work and info.
Does the app or web interface offer this SNR info or were you looking at signal data reported to cloud that only Rachio can see? I’m wondering for other users that may want/need to run experiments on their setup.
Also, did you happen to determine that @johnny2678 low flow notification messages were from low signal strength?
post by johnny2678 on Jun 17, 2018
For now, there isn’t any SNR or RSSI signal strength data in the app, but Rachio can see SNR on their end. The app does report if the signal is Excellent or Poor (there may be more signal strength states but those are the only 2 I’ve seen).
post by fpuig on Jun 17, 2018
At 112 ft. in 900 MHz with milliwatts + obstructions ( underground installation, garage, etc…) you will never achieve good signal level / reliability. You probably can install the controller on the other side of the garage and consider installing it in a plastic box outdoor. Another factor is that in 900 MHz there are multiple equipment like telemetry, etc… systems that basically have an impact on the SNR.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 17, 2018
I should clarify that the controller is already outdoors in an outdoor enclosure.
post by corfam on Jun 18, 2018
@johnny2678 Great. Thanks for photos. I’m no expert on RF, but the pictures should help the community provide additional ideas.
Some suggestions may sound dumb.
At least for a trial, it seems you could move the sensor above ground by adding vertical sections of PVC…assuming you have water pressure to spare. If it worked, a support frame could be added and plants could help hide the setup.
Maybe Rachio controller and/or flow sensor antenna power is currently being managed lower than FCC certified limits and can be tweaked by software change. Higher power would mean lower sensor battery life but that could be a trade-off for in ground sensor setups.
I wonder if any powered active 900 Mhz LoRa repeaters exist…and cheap ones at that.
I wonder, similar to what @DLane suggested if some type of passive RF director like the suggested “Pringles can” to surround sensor and direct RF towards controller would help…or maybe even a wire cut to specific length and placed near sensor to the outside of the enclosure to act as a passive radiator.
post by johnny2678 on Jun 18, 2018
Thanks again for the feedback @corfam. Always helps to talk/type it out when troubleshooting. There are no dumb suggestions
post by brad on Jun 19, 2018
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post by DLane on Jun 30, 2018
Is the Stucco in the direct path between the controller and the meter? What is your garage door made of? Wireless signals can take multiple paths between components and it would depend on the path(s) available and the RF attenuation that is caused by each path.