Copper pipe flow meter install - Getting Started / Wireless Flow Meter - Rachio Community
Copper Pipe Flow Meter Install
post by knighti10 on Jun 10, 2018
There is another challenge with the Flow meter, the inlet/outlets are not long enough and now the Sharkbite takes up the whole length of the fitting and you will not be able to get the Sharkbite release tool in there. So in the future can these be made longer to allow for the release tool to work with Sharkbite connectors? The problem now if we have issue with Flow meter the couplings either side will also need replacing a $40 unnecessary extra cost…
post by franz on Jun 10, 2018
Can’t wait to see it!
post by brad on Jun 10, 2018
Hi @knighti10, I do have some concerns about your install. We have seen inconsistent readings with the ball valves on both ends of the flow meter. This is due to the change in size from 3/4" to 1" and those ball valves have a particularly small opening. We’ve found that this causes too much turbulence and can cause bad readings. I’d highly recommend switching to an install like mine and illustrated in the 3/4" copper support article:
That said, I totally understand your concerns about getting the sharkbites off. Have no fear! I did the same thing as you to test and was able to get the sharkbites off. It’s a little tricky, so I’ll post a video of it as soon as I grab another flow meter Monday morning. Basically, using two small flatheads you can release the sharkbite a few mm. Then using two larger flatheads you can release the sharkbite and get it all the way off. I know it’s not ideal and it’s something we’ll address in any future versions of the flow meter.
For now, if you want to leave it can you DM me your flow meter serial number and I’ll review the calibration data to make sure everything looks alright? It may be that you found slightly different ball valves that work better. Mine had an orange handle.
post by knighti10 on Jun 10, 2018
Brad, thanks for the reply my serial # F15747195. On the installation website for 3/4 Copper the links to the fittings for Home Depot, Lowes and SupplyCenter shows ball valves, so that needs to change… The biggest issue I have now is I had back surgery 5 weeks and just managed to get the new flow added with some challenges, so I will leave it for now, but I will change it out later once I go through some physio. Will you be able to send a replacement Flow meter?
post by knighti10 on Jun 10, 2018
Before sending a new meter if required, yes please review calibration data, these were from Lowes and yes the restrictions from 1 in PVC to 3/4 Copper is a smaller gap in the valve, so understand reading may be off. Let me know what you find.
post by brad on Jun 10, 2018
Hi @knighti10, the article does link to the ball valve but it’s only to be used on the downstream end as illustrated in this image at the top:
Thanks for sharing your serial number. I’m looking up your information and will get back to you shortly. Needless to say, we will get you up and working no matter what!
post by knighti10 on Jun 10, 2018
Brad, support did contact me and hopefully I will see them this week as I live just outside Denver luckily… Thanks for great support…
post by franz on Jun 10, 2018
Nice! Thanks for being a local supporter!
post by azdavidr on Jun 10, 2018
I’m scheduled to have mine installed tomorrow so this is pretty timely. I have several tree and shrub zones that are on drip. The 7 trees each have three 2GPH heads, so the flow should be somewhere around 42 GPH, or 0.7GPM. The tech specs state that the low end of the meter range is 0.7GPM, so I’m getting close. Is there something that I can have my plumber do to improve my chance of success with low flow zones? Will longer than 6" of run somehow help? Here’s a picture of the location where the install will take place. The pipe is the one furthest to the left. Thanks in advance!!
")
post by azdavidr on Jun 10, 2018
I’m also wondering where you think a good spot is for the unit given these requirements.
- For ¾- inch copper or Poly pipe, you will need 16 inches of straight pipe between the backflow preventer and valve box.
- For accurate flow measurement, there must be 6 inches of 1-inch pipe before the Flow Meter.
With the house being close to the pipe for a stretch I would prefer to go above or below that portion of the house. If I have it placed below that section, just after it clears the house I only end up with 13" of straight pipe downstream. Placing it above and I’m shy of the 6". I think it can be placed in the area where the house juts out, but it would have to be turned such that the flat part is flush with the wall, and I’m not sure that it would be able to turn. Will that be a problem? Do you have any recommendations? If I have to change the elbows to get more clearance from the wall it will add more work/cost. Thanks in advance for any advice.
post by DLane on Jun 10, 2018
@azdavidr - I’ll take a stab at it, but I’d go with what @Brad or @Emil has to say. My sprinkler system is underground and Rachio hasn’t provided the underground installation instructions yet and I haven’t pulled the trigger on a Gen 2 -> Gen 3 upgrade.
Edit: One bullet is the total length of everything including the flow meter and the second bullet is the lead in which is included in the total length (first bullet). If I was in your position, I’d place the flow meter low (below the house outcropping) and replace the pipe from there to the top 90-degree elbow with 1" pipe. So that would be more than 6 inches of 1" pipe to allow the water to settle down more, if the plumber is going to replace 6" of pipe another 7" won’t make much cost difference. From what I’ve read in the other post the main issue seems to be at higher flows - which you won’t have.
post by emil on Jun 10, 2018
@azdavidr exciting! Please share photos after.
I’ll defer to @brad on this question.
Looks like you have plenty of room to install the flow meter on the lower portion of the house. If needed, you can dig out around the pipe as it goes into the ground. Also, the fittings for the 3/4" to 1" transition could be placed along the house where the pipe is closer (you might need to spray paint it after if you don’t want the copper to shine).
Here’s a crude mockup of how I imagine it being installed:
Hope this helps!
post by azdavidr on Jun 10, 2018
Will do! Looking forward to @brad’s recommendation!
Thanks. Your annotation helps. I was hoping to do that, but this requirement from your Quick Start article has me wondering.
I dug down to see what’s happening underground, and there is an elbow below the soil. With the flow meter placed there I would have somewhere around 10" of straight pipe before the underground elbow. I’d have more with the horizontal run to the valve box after the underground elbow (which might actually be PVC, but I’m not sure). Here’s an annotation showing the 10", and the horizontal run that I’m referring to.
Thanks!
post by azdavidr on Jun 10, 2018
Thanks @DLane. I like this idea and agree with the cost part being a no-brainer. Let’s see what @brad thinks.
post by emil on Jun 11, 2018
I’ll double check the measurements of the transition pipe, flow meter, and fittings tomorrow. The 16" includes the flow meter; not sure if you’re including that in your measurements. However, I think you could have the transition pipe start higher (closer to the house) to accommodate the limited clearance you have by the ground.
Hope that makes sense!
post by brad on Jun 11, 2018
Hi @azdavidr, as @emil mentioned just now the 16" includes the flow meter, fittings, and 6" of 1" pipe. I would second Emil’s suggestion to place the meter closer to the ground.
In regards to improving performance below 1GPM, basically just follow the recommended install guide and that will put you in the best position to measure low flow. We are working on improving accuracy between 1GPM and 0.5GPM through some averaging techniques. One big challenge below 1 GPM is that the flow itself is actually just inconsistent. We see this on our highly calibrated mag meter and that’s why they have reasonably long averaging built into those meters. When you calibrate right now, the readings below 1GPM are going to be hit or miss because we’re only making a single measurement at the pressurized time you specify. There are a couple improvements coming soon…
Glad to see you’re upgrading your system with the flow meter @azdavidr! It’s really cool. I was so pumped when I finally got to install mine!
post by azdavidr on Jun 11, 2018
Thanks for the great explanation @brad. I can see what you mean about low flow rates and variability causing issues. My run times for my shrub and tree zones are 7.5 hours and 5 hours respectively, so one would think averaging would work well! My guess is I’ll be reaching back out about the calibration, but either way I’ll provide feedback.
Is there any downside to having more than 6 inches of 1" upstream pipe?
post by azdavidr on Jun 11, 2018
Sorry, one more question @brad or @emil. The plumber coming by in a few hours mentioned using something other than the Sharkbite ball valve that you recommend. He said it would be the same thing but without the ball valve. Should I be concerned? Is there something I should watch for with regards to the part he wants to use instead?
post by emil on Jun 12, 2018
Sorry @azdavidr, behind on my community posts today. You don’t need the ball valve. Curious to see/hear what part he ended up using. Excited to see photos of the installation!
post by azdavidr on Jun 12, 2018
No worries @emil. His shop ended up ordering the wrong parts for him, so I’m waiting to hear back from him on a new install date.
post by nmstough on Jun 12, 2018
Why do you need a plumber if you’re using the SharkBite fittings? Those are expensive so that you can DIY. If you’re paying for a plumber then have him sweat everything on with copper couplings - much cheaper.
post by azdavidr on Jun 12, 2018
Would I still be able to rotate the unit and would I be able to replace it on my own later? I’m just looking for him to do this install, then I could make a swap later if I had a problem.
post by DLane on Jun 13, 2018
@nmstough - I’m not sure the flow meter has copper ends, plus with parts of the flow meter being non-metallic I wouldn’t want the heat from sweating to melt the non-metallic parts if the heat from sweating traveling down the pipe. Additionally, Rachio doesn’t recommend any solvent or glue as that could get on the measurement components or add turbulence to the water flow if any residue projects into the pipe. And as @azdavidr points out, the back side of the flow meter will need to be accessible to change the batteries - either as installed or pivoting around on the Sharkbites, etc.
post by azdavidr on Jun 13, 2018
They’re not copper. Thanks for the input @DLane. I do quite a bit of DIY stuff around the house but I get intimidated when it comes to copper pipes, thus the plumber.
post by nmstough on Jun 13, 2018
By the way, why does one need to rotate the unit to change the batteries? Why not install it with the battery cover facing outward to begin with?
post by DLane on Jun 13, 2018
@nmstough - my unit will be underground and I think that would put the transmitter farther underground with more signal attenuation. Plus there is the green light on top that one may need to look at for connectivity or issues. In the above installation, it could probably be positioned where both sides were accessible without the need to rotate the device. If so, then it would come down to aesthetics, i.e. would one want to look at the side or the top or the bottom of the unit the most.
post by knighti10 on Jun 14, 2018
Emil did come out and fix my error. All is working fine now, and will post picture shortly. A massive thanks to Rachio and Emil for great customer support, service and working directly with a customer in the field. We had a great discussion/chat as I am a techy geek as well working for over 30 years in IT, so all keen on any new initiatives based on the user product suggestions going forward I see posted on the community site. WELL DONE KEEP IT UP.
post by knighti10 on Jun 14, 2018
Attached is a final picture of my 3/4 main feed and attaching the flow meter to 3/4’’ copper with 1’ Copper either side. All works great so far.
post by chris on Jun 14, 2018
That’s one beautiful install @knighti10 and @emil!
post by nmstough on Jun 14, 2018
Why do you need that piece of 1" copper underneath the flow meter? That just makes it more expensive and prone to leakage.
post by emil on Jun 14, 2018
@nmstough, I’m not sure if you saw my reply in this thread, but you’ll need to either reconnect to the original 3/4" copper pipe, or replace the copper below the back flow with PVC – like this:
")
post by knighti10 on Jun 14, 2018
The 1 inch underneath is so I do not use a 1 inch to 3/4 inch ball valve (Ball valves have a smaller pass through than the 3/4 Copper) as my supply is 3/4 Copper. Eventually, I will replace the 3/4 inch supply before the valve box to 1 inch Copper, so that will negate me having the 1 inch to 3/4 inch Sharkbite reducer.
post by knighti10 on Jun 14, 2018
I could also replace the fittings like the picture above using 1 inch PVC to valve box…(little more work and probably not for every homeowner to do)…
post by nmstough on Jun 14, 2018
Why not use a 1"x3/4" reducing coupler to go from the flow meter to the 3/4" copper pipe? Then you don't have the ball valve and you have the full flow through?
post by Olliesshop on Jun 14, 2018
I’m going to be installing my meter in the next couple of days and was wondering how critical it is to use the Sharkbite brand of coupling. I went to my local plumbing supply store and they carry Tectite vs. Sharkbite. I’ve included a picture of the package and the inside of the coupling. It says use with CU/CPVC/PEX and the store said it should work. I have my doubts, though, so please let me know.
.jpg")
post by bde on Jun 18, 2018
@nmstough Because a 1" PVC X 3/4" CTS (Copper Tube Size) SharkBite reducing coupler does not exist, hence the recommendation to use that 25551LF ball valve.
post by jjon90 on Jun 22, 2018
post by azdavidr on Jun 22, 2018
Nice install @jjon90!